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		<title>Comments for page &quot;Hellfire Warlock&quot;</title>
		<link>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287/hellfire-warlock</link>
		<description>Posts in the discussion thread &quot;Hellfire Warlock&quot;</description>
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				<guid>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287#post-840954</guid>
				<title>Re: Look At It THIS Way:</title>
				<link>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287/hellfire-warlock#post-840954</link>
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				<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>RoseRhine</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>477873</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>I agree, sorcerer is for that. Warlock PRC's remain as they are.</p> 
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				<guid>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287#post-840836</guid>
				<title>Re: Look At It THIS Way:</title>
				<link>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287/hellfire-warlock#post-840836</link>
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				<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 18:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>ZenithSolar</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>437357</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>We have sorcerer for that. and there are a few limited warlock PrCs that break the convention of warlock powers. I'd like to keep it cannon as to make it easier to manage.</p> 
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				<guid>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287#post-840686</guid>
				<title>Look At It THIS Way:</title>
				<link>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287/hellfire-warlock#post-840686</link>
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				<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Sorrowdusk</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>431530</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Basically, I look at this the same way I look at powers somewhat in the Savage Worlds system. Let me give you an example from Necessary Evil , a supers game under that system. Lets say that a hero has the power to temporarily enhance his strength. Mechanically, there's just one generic super power, and you can advance or improve that power. <strong>But how does your character do it?</strong></p> <ul> <li>Magic?</li> <li>Mind over Matter?</li> <li>Ki power?</li> <li>Cybernetic implants?</li> <li>Nanomachines?</li> <li>Savage barbaric rage?</li> </ul> <p>Thats up to you. What <strong>&quot;Trappings&quot;</strong> as they call it in that system (or &quot;fluff&quot;) your power takes are what truly makes your character and differentiates it from any number of heroes or villains builds that might choose that power. You could have 2 characters with the same powers, but there are still distinctly different from each other and would RP totally differently. On a side note, in that system, you can spend points to advance existing powers or buy a greater variety of them-so characters that have the same powers and are even of the same Character Rank can still play <em>very</em> differently.</p> <p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>[I also make a comparison to <em>Rhine's</em> argument]</strong></span> that Barbarian for example would have been better if it was simply some kind of &quot;Rager&quot; class because he doesnt like people immediately associating his Barbarian with <em>one</em> kind of fluff or idea-&quot;wild tribesman&quot; when in fact it does not have to be the case. Perhaps your character &quot;rages&quot; dude to some acquired PTSD or pain in their past and never even met a tribe, living an urban life? The tribesman is just one trapping for those abilities, just ONE way the class can add to the setting.</p> <p>Now <em>admittedly</em> Barb is a <em>base</em> class, so you <em>would</em> expect it to fit into a bunch of multiclass combinations. In contrast HFW is a PrC, and PrCs were always intended as world building tools (although I feel <em>all</em> classes are) <em>still</em>, this suggested <em>fluff</em> addition <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>would not change that, but rather fufill that</strong></span> by adding <em><strong>MORE</strong></em> to the setting rather, than taking anything away.</p> <p>In the same way-<strong>I'm NOT trying to replace HFW or Hellfire</strong>. HFW's fluff and Hellfire as a substance <strong>can STILL remain apart of setting</strong>. Essentially, there'd be something akin to an &quot;Advanced Warlock&quot;, <strong>OR</strong> something along the lines of a <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>&quot;Plane Pact/Bound&quot;</strong> Warlock <strong>PrC <em>Group</em></strong></span>.</p> <p>(The latter name comes from the fact that all of these PrCs/Fluff involve the BASIC idea of the warlock forming some pact, or vow to some sort of power group, or group of entities that are Extra-planar provides them with additional power in some form, in exchange for their life force or Con)</p> <p>Under the &quot;Plane Pact/Bound&quot; <strong>PrC <em>Group</em></strong> heading you'd have:</p> <ul> <li><strong>Hellfire Warlock [Nine Hells]</strong></li> <li>Soulfire Warlock [The Abyss]</li> <li>Witchfire Warlock [The Feywild]</li> <li>Weirdfire Warlock [The Far Realms]</li> <li>Saintfire [Positive Energy Plane]</li> <li>Ghoulfire [Negative Energy Plane]</li> </ul> <p><strong><em>Just as Shayla would like</em></strong>, Hellfire remains &quot;a hell thing&quot; as she put it. HFW retains all of its own &quot;Trappings&quot; -the history, background, origins, and what have you; it just gets placed in its own section describing how it applies to the larger <strong>PrC <em>Group</em></strong>. Because each of them are different <em><strong>ONLY thematically</strong></em>, they are all <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>mechanically equal</strong></span> but in no way the same.</p> <p>An alternative organization structure, would be to simply add the information to the bottom of the page, as &quot;<strong>Alternate</strong> Class Fluff&quot;.</p> 
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				<guid>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287#post-840614</guid>
				<title>Re: A &quot;Mechanical&quot; issue? Or a Setting issue?</title>
				<link>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287/hellfire-warlock#post-840614</link>
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				<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 07:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Sorrowdusk</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>431530</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <blockquote> <p>The only real mechanical issue there is that Hellfire is a real thing. It's not just something Hellfire Warlocks get to have but it actually exists.. in hell. Whereas there is nothing like it in heaven or any other outer plane. And I want to keep it that way. Hellfire is a Hell thing in all respects. It burns everything and anything.</p> </blockquote> <p>True-it <em>might</em> be a real thing <em>in Therafim</em> as according to FCII Mesphistopheles has invested all of his resources into developing a bit of a gamble, hoping he might tempt mortals with Hellfire. But in truth- the <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>very existence</em></span> of hellfire isnt as much a mechanical issue, as a fluff and setting issue.</p> <p>Its a <strong>[fluff and setting issue]</strong> as to whether or not you want it (and derivitive things like Hellfire Engines) to exist in your versions of Hell or if you want Hell to even exist in your cosmology. (i.e. Eberrons Shavarath). One of the <em>key</em> things about PrC's is that they were originally created with the intent of being world building tools-and HFW certainly comes out of the box able to add that element to your setting. This does not mean cannot mod its fluff or any other PrC's fluff to use the class mechanically to serve another purpose in your setting.</p> <p>And even if you didnt change the classes fluff, <strong><em>that does not mean</em></strong> you cannot add other substances or powers of some equivalence to Hellfire to your home setting. <em>Mechanically</em> what you've got when strip it down to just the <strong>PURE</strong> <em>mechanics</em> of it and get down to the crank and crunch, you've got a <strong>warlock PrC</strong> that offers:</p> <p>1. [Enhanced item use]<br /> 2. [Increased damage payed with con]; that damage <strong>APPEARS</strong> as FIRE (<em>which is</em> <strong>FLUFF</strong> <em>not</em> <strong>crunch</strong>). That damage is untyped damage that deals full damage to objects.<br /> 3. A [Defensive Ability] that uses that same damage.</p> <p>In my mind, the hard crunch underneath could <strong><em>certainly</em></strong> take and simultaneously exist in many forms without actually stepping on anyones toes <em>on account of the fact</em> that <strong>all</strong> of those that could have it would come from the <strong>Warlock</strong> class. (albeit, FCII does suggest means of adapting it for use with Wizard or other classes if you so chose.)</p> <p>What I'm trying to suggeest is <strong>NOT</strong> changing HFW-No. What <em>I am suggesting</em> is that <em>alternate</em> PrC's be <strong>created for warlock</strong>, not anyone else <em><strong>and</strong></em> using the <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>same mechanics</em></span>. It. Is. Not. HOMEBREW -<strong>if</strong> thats the issue that makes you concerned. The reason being is that it would have the <em>exact</em> same cold <em>hard</em> crunch and mechanics as the HFW class-so there could be <em>absolutely</em> no mechanical balanceing issues.</p> <p>NOW-<em>What I'd like to see</em>, is <strong>acknowledgement</strong> of alternate warlock origins (as described in CArc) <em>and effectively</em> PrC's for <strong>each</strong> of those origins for the setting without creating homebrew shennanigans/munchkinism/cheeseness that comes with homebrewing things -because under the <em>fluff</em>, its NOT homebrew but alternate fluff for an existing class's mechanics allowing to people to play equally <strong>mechanically</strong> with <em>very</em> different <em>flavor</em> that reflects the diversity of the class.</p> <p>What <strong>distinguishes</strong> say HFW from Starfire Warlock between each other is the fluff.<br /> -Where does this class come from, where are the <em>people</em> from, how do they do what they do?<br /> -What does this untyped damage look like, exactly what IS it?<br /> -Why does the class lose con for using its ability?</p> <p>The two could meet each other in the street and not recognize each other at all essentially. As I noted 4E actually gave different mechanical abilities to make different warlock origins distinct-<em><strong>what I want to do instead</strong></em> is the keep the mechanics simple, <em><strong>by keeping them the same</strong></em>, but giving different/alternate fluff options to players who want to take their Warlock into a PrC (of which there are few, so I see myself as adding diversity <em>while maintaning balance</em>).</p> 
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				<guid>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287#post-840266</guid>
				<title>Re: -Moved HFW Fludd Proposal</title>
				<link>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287/hellfire-warlock#post-840266</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 13:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>ZenithSolar</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>437357</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>The only real mechanical issue there is that Hellfire is a real thing. It's not just something Hellfire Warlocks get to have but it actually exists.. in hell. Whereas there is nothing like it in heaven or any other outer plane. And I want to keep it that way. Hellfire is a Hell thing in all respects. It burns everything and anything.</p> 
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				<guid>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287#post-839942</guid>
				<title>-Moved HFW Fluff Proposal</title>
				<link>http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/forum/t-256287/hellfire-warlock#post-839942</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Sorrowdusk</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>431530</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Hellfire Warlock PrC Lore/Fluff Addition<br /> Sorrowdusk 17 Jul 2010, 05:14 -0-500<br /> Now-people say that Warlocks are demonic, but really going by ability names like &quot;Hellrime&quot;, &quot;Hellspawned Grace&quot;, &quot;Devils Sight&quot;, &quot;Brimstone Blast&quot;, &quot;Hellfire&quot; they seem to have more of a ….Hellbent. (pun intended). But certainly some abilities like Witchwood Step, Warlock's Charm and the confusion abilities, as well as Nightmares Made Real can be interpreted though a fey lens -but other sources too if you like. Wheras all spells have standardized names and are recognized by the magic community, spell like abilities are abilities that are only comparable to known spells. It stands to reason that not all Warlocks would refer to their powers by the same names due to their origins, as well as personal preference. Individual warlocks may not give names to their powers at all. The Hellfire Warlock PrC has a distinct infernal theme. But what about alternatives? Rather than hombrewing anything silly, its a simple matter of adding to the Fluff of the therafim world to diversify the PrC, while expanding on the worldbuilding aspect of the PrC. So I propose-</p> <p>-Hellfire Warlock (Infernal Power)<br /> -Soulfire Warlock (Abyssal Power) Derived this name from the self destructive 'Soul Fire' energy used by Solamiths<br /> -Witchfire Warlock (Dark Fey Power) Thought about Faerie Fire, but thats already the name of a SRD spell<br /> -Weirdfire Warlock (Abberant/Far Realm/Old One/Elder Power)<br /> -Saintfire (Celestial/Positive Power)</p> <p>Each one WORKS EXACTLY THE SAME MECHANICALLY and CAN ALL be added to Hellfire Warlock PrC page. ITS ALL ONE PrC, but THE ONLY THING that makes these alternatives different is the fluff surrounding them, each one represents a pact with a different power greater than oneself. While Therafim's fluff is closer to 3.5 warlock, in my mind the PrC however very much represents a pact forged with some power. Complete Mage gives an overview on &quot;Arcane Archetypes&quot; and later on in that chapter also discusses the different sources Warlocks may derive their powers from (Devils/Demons/Celestials/Fey/Slaadi) although there can be more. As noted in the Complete Arcane, warlocks often get their power from a bloodline either by having unnatural blood in them, or through a pact made by their ancestors or a pct made by the warlock themselves when they first took the class (as elaborated on in Complete Mage- albeit pacts are considered standard and taken for granted in 4.0 to further differentiate them from Sorcerer which Therafim does not have.)</p> <p>PrCs are generally not something you're born or forced into, but something a character must choose to become quite deliberately. NOT that it means you always have to choose the same PrC flavor as the origin of your powers. Maybe you're a thematically &quot;Feylock&quot; from your pact or by birth, but you went through the rituals to make a bargain/pact of sorts with Infernal powers later in life to go into the PrC as Hellfire flavor Or vice versa.</p> <hr /> <p>-Ghoulfire (Undead)<br /> Note-although the 4 additional examples above are certainly enough, for whatever reason 'Ghoulfire' strikes me as cool sounding. Albeit, undead dont have con scores and cant take con damage, so they have no life to give in exchange. Although…if there were some potent undead power to make a pact with, I can see them wanting mortal life/con energy to feed on. Although theres no general undead group-Falazure is the undisputed dragon god of undeath and according to our fluff all necromancers pay some lip service to him. Perhaps he could grant Ghoulfire to warlocks, which among them would be known colloqially as &quot;The Breath of The Night Dragon&quot; or &quot;Falazure's Fire&quot;.<br /> As an alternative, since most of them deal with planes (the Witchfire warlock being the feywilde) you could LOOK at it as Ghoulfire being associated with say, the Negative Energy Plane. SO-</p> <p>Hellfire Warlock [Nine Hells]<br /> -Soulfire Warlock [The Abyss]<br /> -Witchfire Warlock [The Feywild]<br /> -Weirdfire Warlock [The Far Realms]<br /> -Saintfire [Positive Energy Plane]<br /> -Ghoulfire [Negative Energy Plane]</p> 
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